Give And Take

My guest today is Coltan Scrivner, a behavioral scientist who has spent years studying the psychology of why we’re drawn to the dark, the eerie, and the unsettling. His brand-new book, Morbidly Curious, takes us deep into the strange territory of horror films, true crime, haunted houses, and all the things we’d rather pretend we don’t think about—but secretly can’t look away from. In our conversation, we explore why being curious about the morbid isn’t a flaw—it’s a fundamental part of being human. From evolutionary survival to modern entertainment, Coltan makes the case that leaning into our fascination with the macabre can actually teach us something about ourselves and the world around us. It’s a provocative, fascinating, and—yes—morbidly fun discussion. Special Guest: Coltan Scrivner .

For our 300th episode of Give and Take, we’re doing something different. Instead of hosting, Scott Jones steps into the guest chair. His friend—and former guest of the show—Jane Rosenzweig takes the reins as interviewer. Together, they look back at the journey of Give and Take: the conversations that shaped it, the surprising turns along the way, and what Scott has learned from asking (and sometimes dodging) big questions over 300 episodes. They also talk about what it’s like to live out loud on a podcast, the art of listening, and where the show might go from here. It’s a candid, celebratory, and reflective conversation you won’t want to miss. Special Guest: Jane Rosenzweig.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with author and pastor Mandy Smith to talk about her new book Confessions of an Amateur Saint. (https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Amateur-Saint-Christian-Self-Sufficiency/dp/1641588373) In it, Mandy offers an honest, grace-filled exploration of what it means to stumble faithfully toward holiness in an ordinary, imperfect life. Together, they unpack how spiritual growth often looks less like polished sainthood and more like vulnerability, struggle, and deep dependence on God. It’s a conversation about embracing weakness, finding freedom in honesty, and learning that sainthood is less about striving and more about surrender. Special Guest: Mandy Smith.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with Beatrice Marovich about her provocative new essay, “Is Theology Dying?”, published in the Spring 2025 edition of The Other Journal. Marovich, author of Sister Death: Political Theologies for Living and Dying, reflects on the state of theology in our contemporary world—its dwindling institutional presence, its surprising resilience in unexpected places, and its evolving role in public discourse. Together, they explore whether theology’s apparent decline is a death knell, a transformation, or something stranger altogether. You can find "Is Theology Dying?" here. (https://theotherjournal.com/2025/06/is-theology-dying/) Special Guest: Beatrice Marovich.

In this episode Scott is joined by historian and freelance journalist Molly Worthen. Her newest book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History From The Puritans To Donald Trump. (https://www.amazon.com/Spellbound-Charisma-American-History-Puritans/dp/0593729005)They explore the themes of charisma, storytelling, and personal belief. They discuss the complexities of faith, the journey from observer to practitioner, and the role of charismatic leaders in shaping cultural narratives. Worthen shares her personal experiences of conversion and the challenges of reconciling faith with reason, while also reflecting on the importance of community and the need for meaningful stories in a chaotic world. The discussion touches on historical figures, modern political charisma, and the ongoing search for understanding in both religious and secular contexts. You can find out more about Molly and her work at her website: https://mollyworthen.com. Special Guest: Molly Worthen.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with pastor and author Jack Haberer to discuss his new book, Swimming With the Sharks: Leading the Full Spectrum Church in a Red-and-Blue World. (https://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Sharks-Spectrum-Red-Blue/dp/B0D8NY75S5/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=O43WZ&content-id=amzn1.sym.0fb2cce1-1ca4-439a-844b-8ad0b1fb77f7&pf_rd_p=0fb2cce1-1ca4-439a-844b-8ad0b1fb77f7&pf_rd_r=132-1264772-5567349&pd_rd_wg=J2f20&pd_rd_r=5d617b71-a8a3-4e4a-a365-0e568f22e514&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_dsk) As political polarization increasingly shapes—and often divides—American congregations, Jack brings hard-earned wisdom, theological depth, and pastoral sensitivity to the challenge of leading churches across ideological lines. Drawing from decades of ministry in diverse settings, Jack shares real-world stories, practical insights, and a hopeful vision for what it means to shepherd a church that refuses to split down party lines. The conversation explores how pastors can stay rooted in the gospel while na

On this episode of Give and Take, I talk with Lauren Jackson, writer of The Believing Project at The New York Times. Lauren explores the strange, beautiful, and sometimes baffling terrain of American religious life—what we believe, why we believe it, and how belief shapes the way we live. We talk about the origin of her project, the state of faith in an increasingly secular age, and why the stories we tell about belief might be more important than ever. From revival tents to deconstruction TikToks, Lauren brings a literary and deeply curious lens to the spiritual landscape. It’s a conversation about belief, doubt, devotion, and the stories that make us. In this conversation, Lauren shares her experiences growing up in the Mormon Church in Arkansas, exploring the complexities of faith, identity, and the search for meaning in a secular world. She discusses the challenges of navigating religious beliefs in modern society, the role of religion in politics, and the cultural shifts surrounding spirituality. Lauren

My guest is David Litt. His newest book is It's Only Drowning: A True Story of Learning to Surf and the Search for Common Ground. (https://www.amazon.com/Its-Only-Drowning-Learning-Search/dp/1668035359) Litt, a former Obama speechwriter moves to the Jersey Shore and learns to surf with the help of his brother-in-law: a tattooed, truck-driving Joe Rogan superfan. David, the Yale-educated writer with a fear of sharks, and Matt, the daredevil electrician with a shed full of surfboards, had never been close. But as America’s crises piled up and David spiraled into existential dread, he noticed that his brother-in-law was thriving. He began to suspect Matt’s favorite hobby had something to do with it. David started taking surf lessons. For months, he wiped out on waves the height of daffodils. Yet, after realizing that surfing could change him both in and out of the water, he set an audacious goal: riding a big wave in Hawaii. He searched for an expert he could trust to guide and protect him—and when he couldn’t f

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with essayist and cultural critic William Deresiewicz about his provocative piece Post Election, published in Salmagundi magazine. They explore the growing disaffection with the contemporary left among intellectuals, artists, and other traditional allies, and the emergence of what Deresiewicz calls the “not-left.” It's a wide-ranging conversation about politics, culture, class, and what it means to think independently in a polarized age. You can find Bill's essay here. (https://salmagundi.skidmore.edu/articles/1242-post-election) Special Guest: William Deresiewicz.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with Justin Evans, author of The Little Book of Data (https://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Data-Understanding-Analytics/dp/1400248353). Justin has spent his career helping companies and creatives make sense of the numbers that shape our world. In his new book, he distills big ideas about data into bite-sized insights that are accessible, engaging, and surprisingly fun. We talk about how data can clarify rather than complicate, how it shapes decision-making in business and life, and why learning to read the "small print" of the digital age might just be a superpower. Whether you're a data skeptic or a spreadsheet junkie, this conversation will change how you think about the numbers that surround us. Special Guest: Justin Evans.

In this episode, I’m joined by Todd McGowan, philosopher, psychoanalytic theorist, and author of Universality and Identity Politics. (https://www.amazon.com/Universality-Identity-Politics-Todd-McGowan/dp/0231197705/ref=sr_1_1?crid=8C9U2EPDO9BE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.r5Z7sTqttNg-EcLCYP7X_WGdcvAZuBYwncEdhvZ_-6fI3QZleKwpbKPQLprw-cioT4S9ZUob9fFmYoVhnYcZau5wcU7DhzX24KrA_O8KE38noZIvRg5ie8hCU4ips4leehB14VrhNR3IbC8CdASRUg.pCUb8ADulIxkR2YhubPdyQqN7Zs2gNB-_QT1xVeb7oA&dib_tag=se&keywords=universality+and+identity+politics&qid=1748553149&sprefix=universality+and+identity+politics%2Caps%2C88&sr=8-1) We explore the central argument of his book—that true political transformation requires a return to universality, not a retreat into particular identities. Todd challenges prevailing assumptions about identity-based movements and offers a compelling alternative grounded in psychoanalytic theory and Hegelian philosophy. It’s a provocative and timely conversation about how we understand solidarity, difference, and what it means to bui

My guest is Thane Rosenbaum. His latest book, Beyond Proportionality: Israel’s Just War in Gaza (https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Proportionality-Israels-Just-Gaza/dp/B0F8415Z4N/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.l8elEFVBoCrED4HkFk9Jj38hhVpvZgWN3Z-Wzac0_1QJzclfxh7wda7vpFxqTIcb.h5NAqaNaDiyt6uE4f4HZ4lyvRWaJHqPfcUDjsKxvfmg&dib_tag=se&hvadid=693512980469&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9007284&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=1760559380053206389--&hvqmt=b&hvrand=1760559380053206389&hvtargid=kwd-2476431374527&hydadcr=22562_13531169&keywords=beyond+proportionality&mcid=db5daf38099d3098ae2f01ea29d2a485&qid=1747861086&sr=8-1), challenges prevailing narratives surrounding Israel's military actions in Gaza, arguing that accusations of disproportionate force overlook the complexities of modern urban warfare and the legal standards governing armed conflict. Drawing upon international humanitarian law, including the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Charter, Rosenbaum contends that Israel's military operations target legitimate threats such as terroris

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with Elizabeth MeLampy, author of Forget the Camel: Animals, Symbols, and the Stories We Tell. From rattlesnake roundups in Texas to lobster boils on the Maine coast, and the curious case of a certain Pennsylvanian groundhog, MeLampy explores the surprising ways animals help us build communities, confront our fears, and make meaning in a messy world. Together, they discuss how rituals involving creatures both wild and domestic reveal our deepest cultural myths—about nature, class, history, and ourselves. What do sled dogs say about heroism? How does killing a rattlesnake become a rite of regional pride? And why do we still care what a groundhog sees in February? Tune in for a conversation that’s as thought-provoking as it is unexpected. Special Guest: Elizabeth Melampy.

My guest is Kelsey Osgood. She is the author of Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys to Religious Conversion. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593834674/?bestFormat=true&k=godstruck&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-pd-bk-d_de_k0_1_8&crid=2ZBDN822FVNUO&sprefix=godstruc) Driven by a profound curiosity and anchored by intimate reporting, Godstruck is a provocative, insightful, and refreshingly nuanced exploration of both the joys and the challenges of faith that reveals what these seekers can teach all of us about modern life and our own searches for meaning. Special Guest: Kelsey Osgood.

In this episode of Give and Take, I talk with journalist and author Benyamin Cohen about one of the most bizarre and largely forgotten chapters of World War II history—when dozens of high-ranking Nazis spent the war years not in prison camps, but in luxury at a West Virginia resort. We’re talking about the Greenbrier Hotel, a grand, opulent resort nestled in the Allegheny Mountains, where captured German diplomats and their families were detained—if you can even call it that. They enjoyed gourmet meals, spa treatments, tennis matches, and more, all under the watchful but discreet eye of the U.S. government. How did this happen? Why was it kept quiet? And what does this strange story reveal about America’s role in the war, diplomacy, and the narratives we choose to remember? I address these questions and more as I discuss this surreal piece of history with Benyamin Cohen. You can find the article Benyamin Cohen wrote about the Greenbrier Hotel and its Nazi guests for The Forward here. (https://forward.com/news

My guest is Tamara Dean. In the midst of the environmental crises of the early twenty-first century, Tamara Dean sought a way to live lightly on the planet. Her quest drew her to a landscape unlike any other: the Driftless area of Wisconsin, a region untouched by glaciers, marked by steep hills and deeply carved valleys, capped with forests and laced with cold, spring-fed streams. There, she confronted, in ways large and small, the challenges of meeting basic needs while facing the ravages of climate change—an experience at once soul-stirring and practical that she recounts in Shelter and Storm. (https://www.amazon.com/Shelter-Storm-At-Home-Driftless/dp/1517918561/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KSNHS2FNRRYH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.fucIh6ORgm3LuL9O9Aos7DJ7iuestcftQdYFDpbzU77GjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.Me7ObPYITnAJnXm8mZuFGq5sq9xMRJKj-Zzd_ZJ0KUU&dib_tag=se&keywords=shelter+and+storm+tamara&qid=1744904063&sprefix=shelter+and+storm+tamara%2Caps%2C108&sr=8-1) If you're interested in connecting with Tamara during her book tour, you can find

In this episode of the podcast I talk with David Zahl about his new book, The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace in a Worn-Out World. (https://a.co/d/0dpLW5t) In a time when burnout, anxiety, and relentless pressure are everyday companions, Zahl offers a powerful case for why grace—real, honest, unconditional grace—is more urgent than ever. Drawing on personal stories, cultural analysis, and theological insight, The Big Relief explores how grace can meet us in our exhaustion and offer rest to our restless souls. David and I dive into the heart of the book, unpacking what it means to experience grace in a culture that often demands perfection and performance. Special Guest: David Zahl.

My guest is Daniel Breyer. His debut novel is Smokebirds (https://www.amazon.com/Smokebirds-Daniel-Breyer/dp/1644284456). In the near future, when every autumn is fire season in California, wealthy San Franciscans flee their city for smoke-free pastures. Among them are the Petersons, a family enriched by the lumber industry, who traditionally spend every August in Hawaii. This annual retreat, once a period of leisure and luxury with golf, hikes, and high-society mingling, takes a turn when 22-year-old Cole Peterson aligns himself with Aid For Earth, a climate justice organization. Cole and Aid For Earth proceed to mire the Peterson family in scandal, alleging that Peterson Lumber started a forest fire, covered up their culpability, and then profited off a government contract to extract the burnt lumber. Smokebirds is not just a narrative about the complexity of familial bonds and the facade of integrity; it is a commentary on the enduring power of privilege against the backdrop of climate justice. It captures

My guest is Daniel Oppenheimer. Daniel is the host of Eminent Americans, a podcast (https://danieloppenheimer.substack.com/podcast)about the writers and public intellectuals who either are key players in the American intellectual scene or who typify an important aspect of it. Special Guest: Daniel Oppenheimer .

On this episode of Give and Take, host Scott Jones sits down with Denise Hamilton to discuss her debut book, Indivisible (https://www.amazon.com/Indivisible-Forge-Differences-Stronger-Future/dp/1682688380/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1C840QVW5ID6N&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JwvjtrnKmJ0-rAJZmGKp8AIPz4WmordzwgbxZjFEEgW4Xib6LlxvKY30gdUwna4mif1mw_mupv1lGNGVSu698Q.riWJ0yONiqsu5eMvWsM3G6i3hDCm9K70aGCiAkGVfQM&dib_tag=se&keywords=indivisible+denise+hamilton&qid=1743111121&sprefix=indivisble+denise+hamilton%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-1). A visionary leader and advocate for inclusion, Hamilton explores what it truly means to bridge divides in an increasingly polarized world. Together, they delve into the urgent need for unity, the challenges of fostering meaningful conversations across differences, and how individuals can take action to create a more connected and equitable society. Tune in for an insightful and inspiring discussion on building a future where everyone belongs. Special Guest: Denise Hamilton .